September 30th, 2008
01:17 PM ET

A Deepening Leadership Crisis

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David Gergen | Bio
AC360° Contributor
CNN Senior Political Analyst

Yesterday's stunning rejection by the House of Representatives of the financial rescue plan represents one of the clearest signs yet of the deepening leadership problem we are facing as a people.

The pleas of a President, Congressional leadership, the business community, the press - all were ignored and defied by a majority of Members in the House. The opposition was especially intense among House Republicans, even though the most urgent pleas came from fellow Republicans in the executive branch. Those who voting against a rescue, in my judgment, should be held accountable by voters at the polls this November if the country now endures greater hardships.

But we should recognize as well that the reason so many voted against the package was that the public has been against it - and in turn, the public has not been persuaded because it has lost trust in our national leadership. And THAT is a serious problem for a democracy - one that deserves more extensive debate about why the breakdown in trust and what can be done about it.

At Harvard's Center for Public Leadership, which I have the privilege of directing, we have taken public surveys in each of the past three years measuring confidence in our nation's leadership. Our surveys have been done in partnership with U.S. News & World Report as well as Yankelovich.

The results haven't been pretty. In the fall of 2005, some 65% said we have a leadership crisis in the country. By 2006, the number had risen to 69%. And last fall, no less than 77% declared there was a crisis of leadership. Moreover, 79% said the United States would decline unless we get better leaders.

Please note that this survey did not reflect just an unhappiness with President George W. Bush. It was widespread across 12 different institutions and leadership groupings. Only the military and the medical profession were given relatively high marks this past fall. Strikingly for purposes of understanding these past few days, the institutions and groups with the lowest levels of confidence were smack in the middle of this financial meltdown. Four of the five lowest rated groups in the index were business, Congress, the executive branch, and the press. No wonder the "leaders" of these institutions had so much trouble persuading the general public about the seriousness of our financial mess.

What we see today then is a leadership vacuum. And in particular, we are experiencing an interregnum in Washington, a moment when the highest office in the land seems vacant and we are awaiting a new national leader.

But we cannot assume that a new president, whether Barack Obama or John McCain, can magically wave a wand and solve our problems. It is clear that we need to rebuild leadership in institutions and groups across the board. And unless we do so, America's greatness as a nation will be severely challenged.

How should we renew and rebuild our national leadership? That, I hope, will be a conversation in which we can all engage in the days ahead. Your views would be welcome right now. Thank you.

Filed under: Bailout Turmoil • David Gergen
soundoff (90 Responses)
  1. Robert Davee

    You are right regarding the failure of institutions and the obvious lack of confidence in the executive, legislature and press. You are also right in its manifestation on the bailout issue. The public dialogue of our political leaders has become increasingly poisonous since the disputed 2000 election and through the Iraq war, in which it would appear that politicians would prefer national failure if it advances their political agenda. This has eroded the executive and its ability to mobilize support while simultaneously eroding the ability of the majority party in the legislature to gain any support outside their party and political affiliations. If you spend all of your time mindlessly demonizing the opposition why would you expect them to trust you, even if the greater good calls for that. Finally, the major media outlets are now seen as grossly partisan and are completely distrusted, if not reviled, by one of the two major parties. This is in addition to being so insular as to have no apparent understanding of the sensibilities and concerns of the vast majority of the country who do not reside on the east or west coast and did not attend an ivy league school or attend washington dinner parties. – And you still wonder why the middle of the country trusts none of you? Geez.. . . .

    October 1, 2008 at 12:11 am |
  2. Kristina

    The American people get the leadership they deserve. They spend more time watching American Idol than following the ins and outs of governmental institutions. As a result they are easily manipulated by their "leaders." Further, the political class has made it virtually impossible to defeat an incumbent because the incumbent has access to money and starts out with high name ID. Add gerry-mandered districts to the mix and a challenger to the status quo has little chance. Why should anyone with talent and brains go into politics as a career? So that he/she can be ridiculed by the blogs, the media and the extremist opponents?

    October 1, 2008 at 12:10 am |
  3. Robert Piepenbrink

    Mr. Gergen, The problem is not our lack of trust, but a leadership which cannot be trusted. In a democracy, when people no longer find their political leadership credible or competent, the customary solution is different and more reliable leadership. At that point the "trust" issue resolves itself.

    If the present people and parties wish to retain or regain power, let them consider how they might prove themselves worthy. It is their problem and not ours.

    October 1, 2008 at 12:10 am |
  4. James

    I typically try to find a prior comment with which I agree, in the interest of team play. Mike from Syracuse states the case well. No one has explained to the governed HOW the particular measures of the bill are necessary to encourage financial institutions to start lending to each other again. The analogies to burning houses are patronizing. The politicians' arrogance and the staggering headline figure involved – $700 billion – have caused the torrent of public venom to this bill. I ask you – given the lopsided public opposition to the legislation, how could you in good conscience view a vote in favor of the legislation as a success? Until the politicians bring the public around, any vote for this legislation would mark a failure of the process – by politicians just blindly reciting the chants from Treasury's high priests.

    October 1, 2008 at 12:03 am |
  5. Craig

    All I hear for our leaders is death and gloom for our economy if this bailout does not pass. Seems very simular to the "WMD" claims before the war. Show the American public where and what this money is going for. I also find in interesting that this administration made it harder for the "little guys" to get their "bailout" by making it harder to claim bankruptcy, but the government can bail out the "big guys"..

    September 30, 2008 at 11:41 pm |
  6. Jeff in MI

    One of the chief justice said there is something wrong with US because we have too many lawyer. Lawyers are playing words all the time like I did not inhale. We need generals like Washington. We need engineers and entrepreneurs who want to see concrete results instead of politically correct statements.

    September 30, 2008 at 11:37 pm |
  7. Richard R

    Our leaders seem to be incoherent and stupid on this issue. My own strong view is that the financial sector does not need more capital. It needs to convert its massive overuse of debt into equity. The government can help here by making restructuring easier. But massive new capital is the last thing we need in financial services - there is plenty of capital in the system, just too much is debt and not enough is equity. But the Washington crowd seems hellbent on injecting more capital into financial services - to what end? More credit card debt and more bad mortgages?

    September 30, 2008 at 11:33 pm |
  8. Kathy in Mi

    Our so called leaders are so ready to trash anyone who thinks opposes them. The press are so busy entertaining everyone and vying for their rating they forget they are supposed to investigate and report, not just try to force the networks views on us. Maybe they don't forget it a choice they make by working on certain networks.
    If a person is not totally knowledgeable and does their own research it is impossible to know the truth. We have been spun til we don't know which direction to run. According to Bush the world is falling every couple years. I for one, am sick of his "wolf cries". It may be real this time but who believes him now?
    Whatever happened to ETHICS? We the american people are only cash cows to the politicians and we are tired of it.
    Lets cut their pay, or their lifetime status, since they failed in their job and see how many quit.

    September 30, 2008 at 11:33 pm |
  9. Mike H

    Naomi Klein's book, "The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism" offers some deep insights into what we're seeing in our leadership now. It's a must-read for anyone interested in understanding the actions of the Bush Administration over the last 8 years.

    I'm pretty moderate politically but I believe she's on the mark in saying that Milton Friedman's disasterous, extreme free-market economic ideas have become the dominating force in policies produced by our government. I think the solution to the current crisis could be found by abandoning Friedman and re-reading John Maynard Keynes.

    September 30, 2008 at 11:33 pm |
  10. landon kelsey

    from Michael Moore

    Let me cut to the chase. The biggest robbery in the history of this country is taking place as you read this. Though no guns are being used, 300 million hostages are being taken. Make no mistake about it: After stealing a half trillion dollars to line the pockets of their war-profiteering backers for the past five years, after lining the pockets of their fellow oilmen to the tune of over a hundred billion dollars in just the last two years, Bush and his cronies - who must soon vacate the White House - are looting the U.S. Treasury of every dollar they can grab. They are swiping as much of the silverware as they can on their way out the door.

    September 30, 2008 at 11:21 pm |
  11. Susan Bush

    Thank you for your insightful comments. It seems that leadership is lacking in Washington, corporate boardrooms and in homes across America. As an educator, can you suggest some ways we can help get back on track? Perhaps an episode of AC360 on leadership might be a start. Thank you very much.

    September 30, 2008 at 11:21 pm |
  12. Rachelle, Crestline CA

    Jail the Corrupt!!!

    Here is a quote from Andrew Jackson, railing on a delegation of bankers in 1832:

    “Gentlemen, I have had men watching you for a long time, and I am convinced that you have used the funds of the bank to speculate in the breadstuffs of the country. When you won, you divided the profits amongst you, and when you lost, you charged it to the bank. You tell me that if I take the deposits from the bank and annul its charter, I shall ruin ten thousand families. That may be true, gentlemen, but that is your sin! Should I let you go on, you will ruin fifty thousand families, and that would be my sin! You are a den of vipers and thieves. I intend to rout you out, and by the eternal God, I will rout you out.”

    September 30, 2008 at 11:16 pm |
  13. vicki

    I was so relieved when the package did not pass–I am so disgusted that they are actually going to push it through with a lot of pandering of representatives pet projects...LET THIS PACKAGE FAIL–Start anew-instead of throwing good money at bad money reward those that actually know how to succeed- reinforce them so they feel confident to refuel our credit availability and get this country moving forward. Yes we do not trust our leaders–they have not earned it–so therefore do not deserve it--I really want to be proud to be an American with American values again.

    September 30, 2008 at 11:15 pm |
  14. DoraBud

    For heaven sake - quit saying the house failed and was irresponsible in not passing the bailout. For once they did EXACTLY what they were put in Washington to do - – LISTEN TO THEIR CONSTITUENTS.

    We (Americans) don't want it (and very respectable economists say it won't help). HOORAY for those who voted against it.

    They need to come up with something much, much better than this.

    September 30, 2008 at 11:12 pm |
  15. Tim

    The cash cow is dying. Gov. using the 9/11 fear monger tactics to get the tax payer to bail out their "business associates". The arrogant nerve of our so called leaders. The media helping them spread the fear wave too.
    Don't fall for it people. Let nature take it's course.
    The arrogance of our politicians to think they can change the course of nature.
    All who defend this plan have something to lose from financially criminal gains. You call yourselves out as accomplices in what has to be one of the biggest blue collar crimes in the history of the country.
    Vote honestly so we can see who you are. We'll remember you at the polls.

    September 30, 2008 at 10:59 pm |
  16. Rachel

    Mike T....OR people don't trust the Republicans because they deregulated the financial industry to save pave the way for Wall Street to run their businesses into the ground and leave with billions. The guys at the top had golden parachutes and $200 million a year each in some cases. EIGHT years of free reign with no one watching and they get off scott free....or I guess they did have to pay off the people who protected them in sneaky yet legal ways. and the "LIBERAL MEDIA" is a phoney way for the Republicans to excuse everything they do. NO ONE IS BUYING ANY OF THIS NONSENSE ANYMORE

    September 30, 2008 at 10:59 pm |
  17. Erik

    Mike T can spout off all he wants about 'liberal this' and 'democrat that' or someone else can spout off about 'right wing nut this' or 'republican that'. That kind of rhetoric is so tiresome, stale, and trite – it just makes me want to puke. We have a major breakdown in leadership, and it's all across the board with plenty of blame to go around, American public included. Many a country has had a major revolution over issues smaller than this (tea time tax anyone?), and the time seems ripe for another one. I think the House and Senate needs to be swept clean, along with many of the other departments. Fire them all – no severance packages or bailouts for them. I think we the people can do a far better job than they the people. Revolution 2008 for President!

    September 30, 2008 at 10:55 pm |
  18. Sarah in FL

    Mike T. – The Democrats are guilty of wanting to fund programs that help minorities. But the Republicans with their "less government" are responsible for a lot of the deregulation that allows those programs to get abused. This is a leadership problem on both sides of the aisle. If McCain hadn't gone flying back to DC and injecting politics into this process there may have been a chance for some equitable resolution. But as soon as he rejected the "let's make a joint statement and then stay the heck out of it" suggestion from Obama and decided instead to suspend his campaign, he inserted partisan election crap into it the mix. Now we've got unforgivable but entirely understandable posturing going on. I want to just spank McCain and Pelosi and a host of other folks...not to mention all the greedy jerks who got us into this mess.

    September 30, 2008 at 6:04 pm |
  19. Julie

    David, I have a great deal of respect for you, and usually agree with you, but not on this one. Given the way this 'bailout' has been managed by the powers that be, I have no reason to believe that anyone knows what to do. There are just as many 'experts' against it as are for it. When I wrote my Congressmen, I asked that they not pass anything until they know what they are doing. Obviously, your opinion is that given the state of the economy, doing something, anything, is better than spending time coming up with a workable realistic solution. No one has sold me on the fact that the current plan is realistic or workable. And, by the way, while I may not be an economic genius, I'm far from stupid.

    We do agree that there is certainliy a failure of leadership. I haven't trusted anything the Bush administration has had to say for eight years. I have no reason to start trusting them today. McCain is flipping around like a yo-yo. Obama is keeping clean, keeping his distance, which may be good for him politically, but isn't necessarily a sign of a strong leader.

    Sometimes things just need to get worse before they can get better. I really do hope we aren't at that point.

    September 30, 2008 at 6:02 pm |
  20. Alicia

    Obama’s Financial Advisors (this is only one name)

    Penny Pritzker, Obama's national finance chair was, with her family, the half owner of Superior Bank, which was shut down in 2001 by the FDIC after it had lost nearly all of its more than $2 billion of assets on bad loans to high-risk borrowers, federal regulators said.
    Pritzker has avoided media attention over the past week as reporters covering the Obama campaign sought comment on the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac debacle.
    Pritzker also served as finance chair for Obama's Senate run, and supported him during his time in the Illinois state legislature.
    One reason Pritzker may have been enamored with Obama was his willingness to press legislation that loosened state regulatory policies for land developers and multi-family property owners......

    September 30, 2008 at 5:52 pm |
  21. GAIL Centre,Al;

    A leadership crisis, that's an under statement. Nobody knows what to do, This is a disgrace, no leadership at all. Obama doesn't have a clue if he does he will phone it in. Pelosi is a disgrace, all the dems. look bewildered, and most REP'S. They look and act like a bridge to no where. This democratic congress is proof that the dems.will bring a diaster. Why , PRAY TELL , would anybody vote for a democrate.

    September 30, 2008 at 5:47 pm |
  22. GAIL Centre,Al;

    Wall street needs to see the real world, from my veiw. They're reckless ways should not be rewarded. The middle class can do with out wall street, but wall street can't do with out main street. Let them swim or drown, they made this mess let them clean it up.

    September 30, 2008 at 5:38 pm |
  23. Marty

    It is so crucial in all institutions, across the board, politically and religious. As someone who works with young people, there is an over-riding mistrust of institutions; maybe it should also include the institution of family. There is such a breakdown and a sense of apathy among people that it is almost disturbing. Was this the right time for Congress to listen to the people, probably not, but if there is any hope, even if politically charged, there is the beginnings of an uprising going on within the people, that maybe their voices need to be heard. I hate to be pessimistic, but I think most of the slate is going to need to be wiped clean for us ever to move on in this situation. So much of politics is self-driven and who really cares about the common good of the people, by the people, for the people. Some of the great leaders of this country, including the Founding Fathers, are probably turning over in their graves right now as this all unfolds. Who really knows anymore what is truth, since we are never given the story, including in this economic situation. Until we return to the values and principles on which this country was founded, even if that means moving beyond the absurdity of “political correctness” it must be done or we are doomed for failure. It makes me sad to be an American and at times, even ashamed, while the rest of the world sits back and laughs at us. We need a leader with compassion, vision, a backbone, concern, can listen, can admit mistakes, honesty. As much as those ideals are sometimes considered signs of weakness, they are signs of a healthy leader who doesn’t act impusively but with thought and can see, with some clarity, the direction this country and society must go.

    September 30, 2008 at 5:35 pm |
  24. Joe, California

    Our leadership is the worst it's ever been and unfortunately, it's a bipartisan effort.

    Bush & Pelosi have to be among the worst communicators in American history. Neither can finish a sentence without saying something ridiculous or fumbling about.

    Barack has very little experience & the cult-ish Obama-bots in the media are obsessed with "sending a message of diversity", as Madeline Albright said. If McCain dies, Palin has little experience & her communication skills are on par with Pelosi.

    We can't trust Congress because they are too busy paying off favors to big business & the social issue special-interest groups.

    Maybe the experiment called America is over...

    September 30, 2008 at 5:34 pm |
  25. larry

    Agree with Mike T on this. Suze Orman says what we are experiencing began back in 2000, Clinton was POTUS then. ACORN, Obama & Frank put the squeeze on Fanny & Freddie.

    September 30, 2008 at 5:22 pm |
  26. michelle

    Yes, and it's not going to get any better anytime soon. The 'trust; issue has taken the lead for the time and until the new leaders and re-earn that trust, Americans are holdinng thier own. The standoff is not so much about the economic crisis that is occuring now...it's just the "camels back" theory. It's not going to let up until we hear the current leaders admit they were wrong and step down, or we have a new era where we can exhale and begin to rebuild that trust in the new leaders. We are human and the unconscious pscyhological impact of this whole thing is enormous, and is strong enough to create a self fullfilling prophecy of it's own making...these are our natural consequences of choosinng greed, and power, and money, creating a materialistic society as if this is what is truly important in our evolution, when deep down we know its not for the better good for humanity. if it takes a collective unconscious intervention like failing the bailout plan, we must not assume that we are not in alignment with our own evolvement in our race towards humanity.

    September 30, 2008 at 4:50 pm |
  27. Maria

    I have watched the Dems who voted against the package speak out this afternoon. It is clear that there is a populist uprising going on on both sides of the aisle. The elites of this country need to get over the idea that they can dictate any more. They have to EARN they way just like the rest of us and it can come none to soon.

    September 30, 2008 at 4:48 pm |
  28. Laura

    Mr. Gergen is right; our national government is run by politicians motivated by poll numbers, not by people driven to act in the nation's best interest. I have yet to hear one member of the Congressional Leadership–from either party–articulate a clear understanding of the financial crisis or offer a clear explaination of the "rescue" bill. On the other hand, I have heard the Speaker of the House–an individual I single out not because of her party affiliation, but because of the high office she holds–repeatedly answer questions about the crisis and bailout with low-rent, partisan digs. Why should we expect responsible leadership when we allow the highest ranking member of Congress to act like a first grader who, rather than owning up to any measure of responsibility for a glass of spilled milk, points the finger at her classmate instead. We have ourselves to blame. We've allowed the political campaign to become nothing more than a gory spectacle featuring two Gladiators fighting to the death in front of a screaming crowd–while their respective publicists and fans trash talk in the background. It's sickening.

    September 30, 2008 at 4:43 pm |
  29. michelle

    Yes, and it's not going to get any better anytime soon. The 'trust' issue has taking the lead for the time, and until a new leaders can re-earn that trust, Americans are holding their own. The standoff is not so much about the economic crisis that is occuring now...it's just, 'the camels back.' It's not going to let up until we hear the current leaders admit they were wrong, and step down, or we have a new era where we can exhale and begin to rebuild the trust in new leaders. We are human and the unconscious psychological impact of this whole thing is enormous, and is strong enough to create a self fulfilling prophecy of it's own making....these are our natural consequences of voting for greed and power instead of the better good for all humanity. If it takes a collective unconscious intervention like failing the bailout plan, we must not assume that we in alignment with our own evolvement in our race towards humanity.

    September 30, 2008 at 4:43 pm |
  30. Mike T

    Maybe the reason so many of us don't trust the leadership is because of what passees for leadership in the Democratic Party.
    Q. Why did the banks lend money to those who couldn't afford it?

    A. Pressure from the Democrats stretching back to the Carter admministration.

    Q. Why haven't some been able to afford their mortgage payments?

    A. Rising energy costs which in turn raise all other costs because the Democrats are heeld captive by extremee environmentalists who would be happy to see us all living like cavemen.

    Q. Why don't people trust thee Republicans?

    A. Because whenever they get a chance to fight the Democrats over things like the first two problems they turn tail and run because the liberal media won't like them1

    September 30, 2008 at 4:10 pm |
  31. Kevin

    If Obama had accepted McCain's offer to do town halls across the country, the tone of the campaign would be much better that it is now.

    September 30, 2008 at 4:09 pm |
  32. Angus

    Doesn't matter who wins the election...the US loses.

    September 30, 2008 at 4:05 pm |
  33. Ted, Charlotte

    The lack of leadership is astounding. The problem is that both parties now take a scorched earth policy to legislating – someone has to clearly win and lose each time a statement is made or a bill is discussed. Compromise is never reached, they just load up the bills with more and more pork to buy each other off for votes.

    The business community, or more specifically the financial community, committed the same sin that the dot-com-ers and other boom-bust cycle riders have, getting too much money for something of limited value and thinking it will never run out.

    September 30, 2008 at 4:05 pm |
  34. Scott Carruth

    There's a highly vocal minority based in the finacial community that is screaming for this bailout of their bad investment bets. They place a gun to the head of the public and say give us your money – or you'll lose you job, house, credit cards etc.

    The public was right to contact their reps and reject this highway robbery. Let all of these Wall Street welfare queens bite the dust and see how little impact there is to the real economy. Perhaps Wall Street's pawn shops (i.e. Investment Banks) are terrified of demonstrating how little they matter to the actual business of America. btw the dow is up 400 at this writing. Guess we got 0.5 trillion back already David.

    September 30, 2008 at 4:04 pm |
  35. CBates

    I believe term limit is the answer to our leadership issue in this country. We have old heads in the congress until they are too old to speak and or walk. I do not begrudge a person making a living and at the same time we have a country that is under subtle and sustained attacks from abroad and our response is pathetic to say the least. How on earth can you continue to buy from a country that selling poisoned pet food and baby formula, lead/poisoned toys, lead poisoned fish and on and on for the sake of saving a dollar? how can you let folks dump products in this market at slave wages and say we can compete? No we can not compete wage wise with those economies unless our wages are reduced. How can we not have an alternate energy program when we know we are sending money to develop other countries while this one goes down the tubes.Our education system's production rate is below the average and the quality of that education is not the best. The biggest competition for us is the exporting of our higher education system to the middle east and other nations. Our politicians think we are stupid and sometimes were are and at the same time we need them to not make a career out of being elected. The old heads can act as ad visors but not the lead.

    September 30, 2008 at 3:55 pm |
  36. Josh

    How about the lawyer for ACORN who is also a candidate here, apologize for being part of the conspiracy of strong arming banks into giving loans to high risk people in the name of "economic justice" and fairness. Gimme a break. The fact that Obama has the gall to blame Republicans for "deregulations" and "the failed economic policies of the last 8 years" and "George Bush" shows how much of a novice this guy is. And his supporters are even more moronic.

    September 30, 2008 at 3:55 pm |
  37. KSM

    One reason we have a crisis in our confidence in our leadership is the unreasonalby high level of uncivil press that Bush has gotten. Never in my life have I seen a decent, well intentioned and smart man so viciously pilloried and misrepresented in the press. Our President has been made into a punching bag by adults who act like a bunch of adolescents. What dispensers of vicious criticism don't realize is that they are hurting themselves and our country as much or more than they are hurting Bush.

    Bush is not perfect, but what happened to our ability to disagree without being disagreeable?

    Another reason for the problem is that almost all smart people elect not to subject themselves and their families to the vile treatment that politicians face now days.

    What happened to civility? What happened to reason? What happened to honesty and character? These things are important to a smoothly functioning democracy.

    September 30, 2008 at 3:55 pm |
  38. John M. Custis, M.D.

    Here's the root problem: hatred. Somehow, in the past 12 years, the usual debates about policy and philosophy of governing have been replaced by personal hatred and the desire to destroy one another. This leads to a barrage of personal attacks that destroys the one attacked but also destroys the attacker. Hence, the democrats have succeeded in demonizing President Bush but also demonized themselves. We, the people, trust neither side. The news media, long a source of education and reliable information for the public, have entered the fray and use their position to tear down those whom they despise. The public no longer trusts them.
    The solution –return to good vigorous debate with respect for our opponents. We must not demonize our opponents. We need to learn to lose debates gracefully, even as we continue to pursue our opinions. Otherwise, we all lose . . . as has been obvious for many years now and is very clear in the disgraceful efforts of Congress to solve an urgent national problem in such a way as to hurt the other side.

    September 30, 2008 at 3:55 pm |
  39. Shirley Issel

    Congress and the public are in a bind. You are right that we have lost trust in the Bush administration. Absent trust in current leadership we need hearings that will help Congress and the public understand the complex financial issues that confront us now. With hearings and public deliberation I believe the American people will support a plan to rescue the economy. Of course, election time is a terrible time to ask a vulnerable congress for a couageous vote and the closer we get to the election, the worse it will be. It reminds me of the "boy who cried wolf."I only hope we have time for hearings and that the woof is not at our door, because if it is, the we are in great danger.

    September 30, 2008 at 3:54 pm |
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